Is it real Secularism?

2009-09-02 23:44:31 UTC

FOR Hemant RSS/BJP knows the meaning of PSEUDO SECUARISM,if you or anybody else who is interested to know about PSEUDO SECULARISM, then i will cut and paste my earlier answer given to Maitree ,In the End perhaps you will find what is the meaning of PSEUDO SECULARISM:--

1:-Imposed the sharia law in the name of Muslim personal law ,that too after reversing supreme court judgment on shahbano.

2:- Opened the ram janambhoomi locks to gain Hindu votes.

3:-does shilanyas on Ram janam bhoomi to gain Hindu votes.

4:Rajeev Gandhi started his election campaign fron ayodhya ,and promising ram Rajya.

5:-Using soft hindutva as a state policy in madhya pardesh and Gujarat for electoral gains

6:Released a Terrorist Madni from Kerala Jail who has proved accusation of Bombing Coimbetur.

7:-massacerd 5000 sikhs on the street of Delhi in 1984

8:-Imposed church authority in the daily functioning of Mizorama govt.

9:--Giving grants to madrassas for Muslim appeasement..

10:- Giving Parliament tickets to the person who have called for 25 crore bounty on the head of the maker of danish cartoons/

11:Almost all the members of babri masjid action committee are member of congress.

12:-Massacred Muslims in Hashimpura maliana in merrut by PAC under the chief minister Veer Bahadur singh

13:--Scrap pota to please Muslims

14:--Scrapping the IMT act in assam despite Supreme court ruling,to gain Bangladeshi Muslims votes.

15:-Have a Virtual Blind eye on Bangladeshi Muslims population which is crossing 2 crore.

16:Never they tried to introduce any legislation for population control for the fear of backlash of Muslims , because they believe in increasing there population like Rats.

17:---Today 80% population of India is living on 25rs. a day.

18:-Where our beloved PM says that Muslims have the first rights on the resources of India.

19:-Where our PM lost his night sleep our interrogation of a Muslim doctor, and never care for the students who have been roughly beated on the regular bases.

20:-Ready to destroy Ram Setu without even caring billion hindus sentiments.

21:--running the govt with fake secularist like Karunanaidhi who says Lord Ram was alcoholic.

22:--Ousting Human right activist and novelist Tasleema nasreen from India with even a small calling from Muslims,not caring that his own daughter book in the history Hons. of DU where she mentioned Lord Ram follower of Bigamy and Sita Mata was a nymphomaniac.

I think now any body can understand the meaning of Pseudo secularism................

2016-05-19 10:56:55 UTC

Secularism is basically government where religion doesn't play a role in law making. EDIT If a country is truly secular, no one and I mean no one would be able to go to a state school with any religious symbols (scarfs, cross' on their chains, purity ring, kippah and those things) No, one should be able to say 'God bless', 'Asalaam eleiykum', and anything else that is seen as religious in government or any government building. And the government cannot own anything that is involved in religion (for Example if there was a huge food company in India and they was owned by the government and they started producing Halal food the government should either stop that or sell the company). The meaning of secularism has changed so many times and different people believe it's different things now but I think the way I put it is they easiest way to explain what it is.

2009-09-05 00:30:12 UTC

Yes this is an exclusive form of secularism practiced in Hindu majority India and India will pay price for practicing this form of secualrism (or say pseudo-secularism) and the price will be that this country will collapse in the next 20-40 years or if it doesn't collapse Hindus will have become minority and then these seudo-seculars will see real face of Islam when their daughters and mothers and sisters will be raped, their sons and fathers and brothers will be hanged publically. Till then keep following this exclusive form of secularism. That's why I'm learning French also so that I may settle in some European country or Quebec, Canada to escape that because I know that it is ultimately going to happen in my lifetime only.

2009-09-02 18:42:04 UTC

There is no special secular theory of the so-called secular political parties.For them uniformly,BJP bashing is the end all of their brand of secularism,nothing more,nothing less.All these political parties and their leaders are so blinded and so full of hatred for the BJP that they wouldn't know secularism if it bit them in their a$$e$.Not only that,they are so $hit scared of the BJP coming to power,they would resort to any

which way to thwart such a move,even to the extent of forming the unholiest of alliances,throwing all cherished principles into the trash can in a jiffy.And they all would in the next breath have the temerity to

swear by their Gods that what they do has been specially sanctioned and approved by those Gods.

2009-09-03 05:42:57 UTC

Secularism is the idea of tolerating each other's cultural differences with a positive attitude. Being tolerant and acting matured while dealing with an extra ordinary situation. Gujrat riots, partition, moghul wars are classic examples of intolerant behavior. There are two ways of looking at gujrat riots, one is the intolerance shown by muslims in the form of burning of train bogey which actually started the riots and second is the immature/barbaric reaction shown by hindu organizations. No one can be hundred percent secular or unsecular, it is the circumstances which decide the fate of secularism.

To V, I dont understand this. Are you saying that let the government alone do secularism and the public should go on a civil war based on religion? Indirectly, you are accepting that bjp failed in gujrat riots because it did not practice secularism. Secularism needs higher levels of integrity and honesty. It is fight with one's soul to do the right rather than accepting what the forefathers have passed on for generations. Take a look at issue of cow slaughter in india, are muslims slaughtering cows inside hindu homes? No, but why should hindu organizations be bothered at all? I know cows are sacred for hindus but it shouldnt mean that you stop non hindus from eating it. Why this intolerance?

The same applies to muslims too, why do they need to cheer pakistan cricket team? Old saying but best saying, "Dont mix religion with politics".

Shy, The Logician

2009-09-03 03:02:18 UTC

BJP has formed first government in south India and congress want them to restrict up to there only and so they with the help of media and human activist(don't know what type of humanly activity they do but they call themselves with this name!) are trying to defame BJP government. But they got answer from karnataka people in lokshabha elections.

and now about congress's secularism which is best trick of liar-ism.there secularism fully hollow like there intellectual mind.An average congress knows two thing first is how to appease there masters Sonia and her Gandhi family and second to appease Muslims though at which level of insanity they have to fall.

2009-09-02 23:47:28 UTC

Each word of Mr Punj is 100% Correct

I wish Seculars open their eyes and see cruel truth about Islam

ezeexs

2009-09-02 22:29:40 UTC

No its the worst form of communalism and congress is known for its sugar coated communalism. It is beyond the capacity of so called seculars to understand this.

2009-09-02 19:40:44 UTC

It would be more fun if you could change it as Congress Secular

MS - Believe in Ek Oankaar

2009-09-02 15:37:39 UTC

Actually this very simple and rocket science. You do not react to an day to day events. In Kashmir, Terrorists killing Citizens is day to day activity. I do not know if the security forces were really involved or not but that allegation was an abnormal event thus sharp reaction is normal. I don't know how does Mr. Balbir Punj find secularism and non-secularism in that?

anuragada poojaari(ap)

2009-09-04 02:20:24 UTC

yes.our national language is hindi...but there are people like me...who cant read hindi..and i would be really greatful if you could give me another link..in english preferably...there are many like myself and you would be restricting your answers somewhat if you didnt help us help eachother....

edit..again thanks mukul...if you ever need a kannada or a telugu article translated call me....:-)

now..sudan....did you finally...by the means of this article agree that it was jinnah who divided india...??...and when you accept that you cant believe that he was a great man??

coming to question of whether the govt is being partial ...no...cause it does in every measure condemn taliban and fundamentalist islamist organisation...the thing that gets your goat is that ...while doing so...the congress also condemns your hindu fundamentalist groups and puts you in your place..just beside the islamist groups...

now..on whether there was partiality in giving attention to hindu fundie groups because of what happened in mangalore...well..ask the media...but have you ever considered that maybe its just because that here..the most peaceloving and tolerant of religions is being maligned by the rama sene and its brothers??...that its actualy because of the fact that hinduism is the most widespread religion in india that when something like this comes up..hindus..people straighten up and listen...

this article does in my view...imply that what the hindu fundies did balanced the scales....for me as an indian...its not about balancing the scales..

and how is india supposed to act when some terrorist organisation like taliban imposes stupid laws in some countries like afghanistan which doesnt even have an ethnic indian population??...i agree that it must do something..but the fact is that it can do very little as an external source compared to what it can do to fundies inside its boundries...

@ sudan...promod muthalik was a member of rss...do you need more proof of whether rama sene is bjp or not??...the bjp govt in karnataka handled him with kid gloves..hell they even took him to the station in an ac car...yes...i will get senti..and to tell the truth..so should any indian..

well..you can go ahead and give me lessons on maturity..but before you do so..tell your friend who gives her answers in form of nursery rhymes...

i think i have addressed what in my view is the important part of the article...congress-bashing...

2009-09-02 13:38:59 UTC

If I could read Hindi, I would respond. Sorry.

2009-09-03 03:07:29 UTC

1st of all, everybody plz save this question to your"Private watchlist", so that you can have 3D's (3rd Umpire's) answer handy whenever you want to expose pseudo-secularists.

Since 3D has already explained what are the steps or actions by our leaders that hv destroyed Secularism, I want to concentrate on what I think will revive true Secularism.

1) Every Indian should hv name originating in Indian language, culture or heritage. No name should be allowed which has origin in any foreign language.

Thus one's religious identity cannot be known from one's name.

2) Irrespective of religion every Indian student will learn Sanskrit for at least 2 years.

3) In primary classes all Indian students should have simple versions of Ramayana & Mahabharata in their syllabus.

4) Indians, irrespective of their religion should go to pilgrimage only in Indian sub-continent. Pilgrimage to countries which hv no connection with Indian culture should be discouraged. There are lots of great muslim & Christian holy men who were born in India. They should learn abt them rather than looking up to foreigners.

5) Killing of cows banned.

6) Same law for everyone.

7) Same opportunity for everyone.

8) In place of minority commission there should be a committee that will see to it that all communities can practise their religion in peace & without any interference.

9) If any religion preaches something which clashes with basic Indian culture, that tenet has to be modified to make suitable for Indian culture.

10) Each case of Conversion has to go through a special court.and the person who wants to get converted has to satisfy a panel of religous scholars why he wants to get converted. After that he will hv to go through a period of 5 years in case he changes his mind.

After this period of 5 years only if he still wants to be converted then only he will be allowed.

Noone below the age of 21 years can apply.

In case of 1 member of a family has already applied any other member of his immediate family cannot apply to prevent mass conversion.

EDIT @ HEMANT, why should u be frightened to point out bad things abt Islam or Christianity? If u think Hindu dharma needs reform, then speak for it also.

If some religion's practices harm society as a whole like then every memeber of the society has right to point it out.

One such practice is refusal to adopt birth control measures & or may be polio vaccine?

Hinduism has already gone thru thousands of reforms:

1. polygamy banned

2. Sati banned

3. minor marriage banned

4. remarriage of widows encouraged

5. equal rights to men & women regarding divorce.

6. casteism condemned & compensated through reservations.

7. reconversion made possible though actually not in the scriptures.

8. have u heard of Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda or Dayanand Saraswati? raja Rammohan Roy who helped ban Sati or Ishwarchandra Vidyasagar who started widow remarriage?

SHOW ME ONE RELIGION IN THE WORLD THAT HAS GONE THROUGH SO MANY REFORMS ?

EDIT @ V,

Nowhere in the world religion is separated from public life except in communist countries.

Even Obama takes oath with his hand on Bible.

Hindu religion & Indian culture are so entangled that keeping religion at bay will mean not learning Indian culture.

Illiad & Odessey are epics & they can be read without their religious association. Same Ramayana & Mahabharata can be read as our heritage not as religious books.

Sanskrit is a lang. originated in India. Reading of Sanskrit doesnot mean one has to read scriptures. It only shows adherence to indian culture.

Separating religion from public life how do we teach values to people? Religion is the foolproof way to teach people what's good & what's bad.

From Tilak to Gandhi everyone started mass movement thru religion ...be it Ganesh Utsav or Raghupati Raghav Raja Ram.

EDIT : V, your secularism is the same as propogated by Nehru. It cant work in India. Indians are too religious to separate anything from religion.

This secularism is too vilaayti.

Whatever we say abt Gandhi at least he knew the pulse of the people, that is why he resorted to Bhajans & all that to mobilise people.

That is why communists never succeeded in this country. Because they failed to utilise the best motivation that works for Indians(Hindu or Muslim) .

EDIT: EDIT:EDIT:

AND BY THE WAY I NEVER SAID STATE SHOULD PROMOTE ANY PARTICULAR RELIGION.

ALL I SAID IS ........EVERY RELIGION IS A SUMTOTAL OF SPIRITUALISM & LOCAL CUSTOMS.

Religions that hv originated outside indian sub-continent dont hv similarity with Indian culture.

So such religions like ISLAM or CHRISTIANITY should keep the basic tenets of their religion intact..... but they should adopt the local customs.

Like covering oneself may be normal in hot desert sun but in hot & humid India it is unnecessary.

Hindu scriptures may be written in Sanskrit but that doesnot mean Sanskrit is a Hindu language. It is an Indian language & most Indian languages hv base in Sanskrit.

Then why cant Indian muslims & Christians learn Sanskrit?

WHY DO WE ALWAYS CONFUSE CULTURE WITH RELIGION?

2009-09-03 04:07:48 UTC

I agree with the points raised by 3rd umpire but Maitree, i so do not agree with some of your points.

A person is entitled to his/her freedom of conscience. What faith or what name a person keeps is up to his/her own decision. I do not want Ramayana or Mahabharata taught either in government run schools just like i don't want any government spending on teaching the Quran or the Bible.

A private school however can do that if the parents/clients so desire but not if it recieves even an iota of government aid.

What i want is secularism and that is disentangling the government system completely from religion. That is the pure and simple definition of secularism. Separation of church and state, separation of temple and state, separation of masjid and state. The government should not bring religious law into state law. One law should be imposed on the entire population regardless of the religion they profess. Religion should be a private issue.

When the Congress government gives special subsidies to muslims and christians they destroy secularism. When the Congress government challenges the authority of the state's Supreme court and champions religious law over the law of the land, they destroy secularism.

The point of Hindutva is not imposing Hinduism into the state authority.

Hindu ideals themselves separate panth and power. Yes, we do get annoyed with Congress pseudo secularism but we should not go the complete opposite way. In doing so we would only justify the pseudo secularism.

Individual rights should super cede every religion in the state and that is the raison d'etre for state power to exist in a Democracy. The power that we give to the state as constituents, to ensure individual rights donot get superceded by religion.

I vote BJP because i hate Congress for being in bed with Muslim and Christian fundamentalists who want to overthrow Democracy. These religions if you could call them that deny those rights to individuals but that is another matter. State power should not be vested in any religion, period.

I don't vote BJP to overthrow Democracy to bring in some semitised form of Hindu fundamentalism in state power.

Edit:

Again the personal choice of what to take oath on was utilised by Obama. US is also not a perfectly secular state but it is still trying. In India too people can take oath on a religious book or for that matter not even utter the word God in his/her oath if he/she is an atheist for government office, but the laws that govern us should not be religious.

It is not the responsibility of the state to teach culture. That is a parent's prerogative.

Also, nowhere am i advocating communism. Communism again denies individual rights. Right to freedom of speech, of religion or of even property. Everything is owned by the community. Communism is against natural law and everything human. It denies our very individuality that defines us and inspires us as individuals to achieve great things for ourselves and our society. It robs individuals of everything that inspires them. That is why Communism cannot beat Capitalism at technological development. It can mass produce goods of inferior quality only.

@ Maitree, you have yourself wonderfully described reforms in Hinduism and it's true. But the reforms in religions also happen when there is something that challenges your authority and when they are not in state power. That is also another reason for separation of state and religion. It forces a religion to rethink too and reform it's views to align with modern ethics and not religious morals.

Do you think these reforms would have happened if religion had the power of the state? No, those old diktats would be implemented through state power.

Why do you think there have been no reforms in Islam? Exactly because the muslims refuse to recognise the separation of Islam from political power. And the result is individual's human rights get destroyed day in and day out in Islamic states and they won't let the rest of us live in peace either.

Separation of religion and state protects the religion and culture itself more than the state, otherwise the religion itself will come to be viewed as the oppressor with state power.

@well wisher, you are so wrong. Secularism is not about tolerating each other's culture. The closest thing to your definition is multiculturalism which i strongly feel is a failed experiment.

Secularism is not about the behaviour of the people but about the behaviour of the government. That is the problem in India. The Congress government keeps accusing individuals and private institutions of not being secular when that is not what the constitution expects from us. It is the government that should be secular according to the constitution. The government in India is not at all secular because it funds and takes from religious institutions in India.

A person can believe Islam and christianity are death cults if he wants as long as he does not go kill someone for that belief. You cannot curtail his freedom of speech to express those opinions either. Congress brand of "secularism" is the very antithesis of secularism. They think they are liberals fighting fascism without realising that they are themselves aiding the real fascists. They have sacrificed all liberal values at the alter of appeasement politics.

Bigotry is being promoted in the name of tolerance in India. The congress is promoting the tolerance of intolerance.

@maitree, Infact Gandhi is more "vilayatee" than the secularism i talk of. He used Christian principles against the Christian british. While it evoked a guilt in the british, it evokes nothing but contempt from the muslims who worship power. Gandhi's ideas of passive resistance are more influenced by Christianity than Hinduism, not that Christians of the world follow those ideals. I think christian ideals are also utterly dumb. You can't be a pacifist in the face of oppression and that is why in the real world, Christians cannot hold on to those Christian ideals inspite of the big talk. Christians are not wrong when they say Gandhi was more Christian than the Christians. That is why the west glorified him.

I find lessons for secularism in the Artha Shastra of Chanakya where he advised the ruler to not consider panth/religion of people while administering justice/Dharma. Justice/Dharma is above panth/religion in Hindu thought and that is the beauty of Hinduism. This is even before the idea of secularism emerged in the western world. Even the secularist founding fathers of the USA were deists not Christians. So secularism is very much Indian. And please don't compare me to Nehru. Nehru was just like Gandhi a "vilayatee"! He didn't know the first thing about secularism. They were both moral relativists who did not think at all about human rights. Gandhi justified the Mopla rebellion by saying that the muslim Moplas were being true to their God while he misused the control he had on Hindus to modify Hinduism itself. Had Hindus been true to their religion, they would have fought tooth and nail in the face of such oppression instead of following Gandhian pacifism. Yes, Hindus desire peace but not at any price. Lord Krishna seeks peace but in the face of continued oppression advises Arjuna to fight to establish Dharma too, but not for self.

?

2009-09-02 23:25:01 UTC

dear sudan, i hv gone thru the article of sh. punj in jagran.yahoo.com .

it seems mr punj wanted to write on secularism but wrote whole article on narrating the flaws or bad contents of islam, especially on education, rights and dress codes of women.

i am hindu and feel frightened to point out bad things abt islam or Christianity as my religion itself is full of curses emboldened in spirit and letter. do mr punj have courage to listen what hindu religion/vedas say about ethics, women, shudra, untouchables, discrimination on basis of caste, creed, sex and colour, marriages, sexual relations, havan & yagna, education , gambling, dining & wining,etc etc.

every religion has negative and positive sides , so please set your House in order first before you criticise others.

i know mr punj will immediately call me "pseudo secular" a term coined by rss/bjp, the meaning of which they themselves dont know.

mr punj, jinke ghar seese ke hote hai woh dusro ke ghar pather nahi marte.

mukul (still busy on a project)

2009-09-03 01:14:36 UTC

Although you have not cited right article by Mr. punj to Expose real face of Secularism, but still i agree with you that we as a country are following wrong and tangled version of Secularism.

And i agree with 3rd umpire on each point , i think he was here to just abuse Peter Kumar, but he has brains, which he should use constructively on this forum in future.

@V absolutely wonderful answer, often by hating one form of Ideology we start supportig exactly opposite view or try to force our thinking in a simmiler way ,which is also equal to radicalism.I am giving thumbs up to you .

@ap here is for you the translation in English------------------------------------------------------Expressed concern over what happened in Kashmir in Sopian the Home Minister P. Chidambaram in Manwadikari and secularists are also among. Two teenagers found the body floating in a river. Police claim that their deaths due to drowning, while local people alleged that security personnel after the rape of these young women is murdered. Security forces, the so-called 'savage' attitude has stood by popular movement. Snpttihinsa public offering did. A few days later, a father and his child Dindhadhe militants in her house had been brutally murdered, but neither with the killings nor any picketing on the streets mammoth crowd - it was performed. Why such huge differences in response to two violent incidents?

In fact the first event in protest against human rights outrage stems from the sensitivity was not repaired, but he is a perverted mentality, human rights to adapt the system makes hollow. This image of our security men hatched a plot to prove Nirnkushtawadi. Security men and killer proved Dushkrmi to win the trust of local people are terrorists. In Kashmir, when - when such cases are occur when security personnel tried to stay is the culprit. Terrorists actually Jammu - Kashmir want Htwana restoration of additional security personnel. As usual the demand of separatists 'secularists' have received a direct support. Some days, a respected Islamic scholar and former Uttari K Muhammad Ashraf local college principal was attacked by terrorists. His car was Kshtigrist. In 3000 our college students to read them on terrorists 'hijab' of the implementation deadline has been threatened is otherwise bear serious consequences. Kashmiri women's separatist women's Front already bent on making curtains, there separatists in silencing of women's gun is enough for liberals, but neither country nor in the valley of jihadists from other parts of the decree Tuglki has been criticized. Why? The conduct of terrorists - dress code Jammu - Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's silence underscores what does? Just a few days before what happened in BJP-ruled Karnataka and secularists like Omar Abdullah Manwadikarion opens the tin. Mangalore-based college principal had urged students not to veil. Administration has galvanized the attitude was questioned and his principal. State government of interest to every Indian citizen the right to wear clothing line is committed to protect. Such action was against the educational institutions who want to run code of his own. Some time back in Mangalore in the pub with dancing and alcohol abuse youth - young women were attacked on Utpation the State Government still had firmly taken. Ram Force organization involved in the attack had been self Jilabdr head. Question that the incidence of Karnataka and the remaining events so mute reaction Atirnjk?

It is surprising to see that when Muslim girls - women are forced to veil or hijab, when girls wear jeans are banned then why are Muslim leaders and Sekulrist quiet? From Kashmir to Kabul or Sudan may be even more distance, but do not see any difference in mindset. School girls in the Taliban regime to speak of, even at home they were prevented from obtaining private education, but no resistance. Why? Formation of democratic government after the Taliban rule girls' schools open again, but this government is so scared of Ktmullon to prevent attacks that are at schools could not dare. Reflected no concern to curb Ktmullon. Recently the Government of Afghanistan has approved a religious belief, for which the wife refuses to have sex if her husband is entitled to keep starving. How is this mentality?

The irony is that such brutality on the basis of religion is trying to stay fair. A woman wearing jeans capital Khartum Sudan because three were convicted of killing Kode. One person in another Islamic country, Libya, in which U.S. aircraft bomb explodes, killing 160 people accused of, recently freed from prison in Scotland. Cancer based on sympathy because of his jail term was reduced. But his impressive return was welcomed. Far abroad published a cartoon Apttiajnk threatened to fire the country is in and blindly take Sekulrist such events. Why? Secularists because of the Domunhepan mentality has been reflected Pshcgami of Ktmullon. That mentality made the country's partition. Mahatma Gandhi for his life Antkal Hindu - Muslim Brotherhood, were advocating, but anti-Hindu and Muslim country, demanding a separate one voice in support of Jinnah's Pakistan Muslim community in favor of a larger group stood. Today once again the issue of division is at the center of national debate. The question is not who laid the foundation of the division or who has come true bloody partition? Which is the question that the partition induced psychosis? Is it true that the separatist mindset to be funded by the fire added fuel to diplomacy worked? What is wrong with the Khilafat movement to the country's freedom movement - was not, but plunged into the movement with Gandhiji Lavlskr Congress and its culmination in the form of riots Mopla come?

Jinnah's mindset to attack the ideology of the time it was the foul challenge. "Divide and rule 'of British policy in fact has its secularists. On the integrity of the country's secularists because devious policies has come under threat once again. Boom is over and if Purwaettar separatism in Kashmir from Uttar orgy south are making their Dndkarny the Naxalites. Political suicide is selfish to be nurtured for the insurgency, this historical truth.

mehtaap56

2009-09-03 07:04:25 UTC

Not at all.